"The Great Crash of 2013" a.k.a. The Future of ACL site hosting

The biggest issue seems to be with chat. I'm guessing that the chat doesn't really need to be hosted on the same server as the forum, especially if a third party system was used instead (eg IRC or some other standalone chat product), so perhaps we should be looking at this as two separate issues - the chat and the forums.

My opinion is that the forums are the most important, and therefore should be setup with the most redundancy. And given it seems that the size of the database isn't massive, this shouldn't be too difficult a task - daily (or more often) incremental backups should be feasible, preferably offsite.

Then once this is sorted, the options for chat could be investigated. IRC is certainly an option as it allows people to use their own clients. I'd certainly avoid a java based client, but what about something like a javascript/ajax based IRC client like http://www.atheme.net/iris.html (and I'm sure there's other options as well)

Cheers

Kane

One thing I want to suggest, and I have suggested this in the past only to be shot down by a couple of people. If there is any donation money, it does NOT go to Phil, but the admin team. Set up a new account, paypal, bank or something, and direct all funds (including everything that Phil has collected in the past that has not been spent on ACL) into that account. It is used to pay the hosting, and any other specific ACL bills only.

Also, and this is the big thing, there is an independent person, not a mod, not an admin, nor a vendor, that is kept up to date with the various $ in and out. This would be a check of where the $ is going, and that could be the independent person to keep a check on the funding. This is not so much a treasurer, but just someone looking over the treasurer's shoulder to keep them honest - and based on history here and on other forums, this is needed! Initially this could be voted on by the admins, but maybe for a term of 2 years, at which time they retire and the checking heads to another person.

There are better ways to handle money, but the volume we are talking about, a couple of thousand $ a year max, this may be an easy and simple method. That way things are a bit more above board, and any hint of mismanagement can be dealt with quickly

lithgowlights said:

One thing I want to suggest, and I have suggested this in the past only to be shot down by a couple of people. If there is any donation money, it does NOT go to Phil, but the admin team. Set up a new account, paypal, bank or something, and direct all funds (including everything that Phil has collected in the past that has not been spent on ACL) into that account. It is used to pay the hosting, and any other specific ACL bills only.

Also, and this is the big thing, there is an independent person, not a mod, not an admin, nor a vendor, that is kept up to date with the various $ in and out. This would be a check of where the $ is going, and that could be the independent person to keep a check on the funding. This is not so much a treasurer, but just someone looking over the treasurer's shoulder to keep them honest - and based on history here and on other forums, this is needed! Initially this could be voted on by the admins, but maybe for a term of 2 years, at which time they retire and the checking heads to another person.

There are better ways to handle money, but the volume we are talking about, a couple of thousand $ a year max, this may be an easy and simple method. That way things are a bit more above board, and any hint of mismanagement can be dealt with quickly

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I agree, there has allways been talk about tracking of the donations but no-one ever saw or even herd of it.

I second that motion......

Phil - firstly, thanks for dropping by and saying a few words. There was a lot of angst over the next step if you weren't around to approve the next step, etc.


Secondly, and to clarify, I get the impression a few people thought I was out there on some sort of crusade and I want to be clear that I wasn't trying to downtread anyone, or pour mud (PG) over their efforts. I'm relatively new here in the scheme of things, but already I recognise what a wealth of knowledge ACL is and I want to keep it that way.


I have a couple of options for a professional hosting solutions with redundancy and capacity to spare in every sense of the word, some of which would not even change data centres.
Some options I have are cheaper than others, but I can't provide realistic information on site hosting without answers to some simple questions that have so far gone unanswered.


Bandwidth usage isn't really an issue for the hosts I have access to - it is purely a physical storage capacity we're dealing with - so if anyone can tell me - how big is the site in it's entirety - how much storage space does it physically occupy within the server - and on that note - how much did it occupy, say - a year ago? (to allow for growth).
Once I have an idea of the needs of the site, I can take that info to my contacts to see what kind of deal would be available... it may even be 'donated' hosting just as harrison has done in the past, but on a more managed server with cloud access... perhaps even a separate server to operate the chat also.


Of course, once the needs of the site are known, all that may be impossible, but i don't know and can't find out until the needs are known.


On another note - Phil - you said ACL was a 'business' and that may well be, although you could more readily identify as a not-for-profit organisation. I think LithgowLights' suggestion for transparency or oversight of financial arrangements may be worthwhile if we continue to treat money on a 'donation' basis, although an 'overseer' as such may not be the best way of going about it.

Re: "The Great Crash of 2013" a.k.a. The Future of ACL site hosting

Alex. At this stage we Arnt looking at a next step. If we can find a solution to chat there wont be a need to move.

I use a digital pacific managed VPS on another forum that I am part of the web team for.

Their support and uptime have been brilliant. However we chose for an Australian based server, cost wise now days I think ACL would probably be better off hosted outside of Aus (it costs us ~$140 a month for the VPS we have, with only 150gb / month of data transfer - do note this is a manged server, however)

Re: "The Great Crash of 2013" a.k.a. The Future of ACL site hosting

Harrison Kohn said:

Alex. At this stage we Arnt looking at a next step. If we can find a solution to chat there wont be a need to move.

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[quote author=AussiePhil]
Now if people have positive recomendations for professional hosting that can deal with the traffic volume and chat resource demands please add them to this thread as a recommendation and they will be investigated.
[/quote]

[font=tahoma, sans-serif]Damn, i'm confused. [/font]

If I am reading this correctly and it all started at Phil's own server and own place etc etc, then I don't see it being any bodies business what had has done or what he wants to do with any or all donations. It's his to do whatever he wants to do with it.

Alan

Re: "The Great Crash of 2013" a.k.a. The Future of ACL site hosting

Harrison Kohn said:

Alex. At this stage we Arnt looking at a next step. If we can find a solution to chat there wont be a need to move.

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So we are happy with poor backups, a server that has failed once, all to save a few $... OK then...

924aussie said:

If I am reading this correctly and it all started at Phil's own server and own place etc etc, then I don't see it being any bodies business what had has done or what he wants to do with any or all donations. It's his to do whatever he wants to do with it.

Click to expand...

The donations were for the running costs of ACL, not his own personal bank account, and that is why quite a lot of us donated, to keep the server operational. Any funds spent to pay for hosting (Yes even for part of the cost of his personal ADSL link as that was where it was hosted), software etc is fine. I did not donate for Phil to buy coffee's or groceries, or crap off eBay etc. That was made clear by a lot of people donating at the time.

I think it may be time for this thread to be put to rest. I have been part of the forum for almost 4 years and in that time I think this is the only time we have lost that amount on information (correct me if I'm wrong). So in my opinion Harrison and Ryan are doing an outstanding job. I am confident that if it becomes too much for these two that they will put their hands up and ask for help. Until then I think people need to put there head back in and utilize this site for its intended purpose - FREE, READILY AVAILABLE AND UNBIASED INFO for the Christmas Light enthusiasts. As for Chat I think people are using it for the wrong purpose. PLEASE MODS LOCK THIS THREAD AND PUT THIS TO REST.

Firstly a big thanks to all the admin staff(Harrison, Ryan and the rest of the people that do amazing things in the background)

I have been thru RAID failures on servers before and when its a reasonable sized business that had lost a 15gb SQL database holding medical data with backups not being stored correctly. It involved me losing 48hours straight of my life repairing and retrieving as much data as possible from the drives to get the business running again.

Harrison's server is more than powerful for what this site will ever need and he has it hosted professionally so we are always going to get better service from Harrison than we will from any hosted service as he has full unrestricted access to the box unlike any VPS service.

Im sure that Ryan and Harrison will get to the chat software when they have time but i would bet money that Harrison had a hell of a lot more on the server that was lost than just ACL and Ryan can only work so fast and do so much with the data that he has available he also needs to have a life at some point.

once again thanks to everyone as i know that i wouldnt have the lights that i do if it wasnt for this site.

Re: "The Great Crash of 2013" a.k.a. The Future of ACL site hosting

lithgowlights said:

Harrison Kohn said:

Alex. At this stage we Arnt looking at a next step. If we can find a solution to chat there wont be a need to move.

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So we are happy with poor backups, a server that has failed once, all to save a few $... OK then...

924aussie said:

If I am reading this correctly and it all started at Phil's own server and own place etc etc, then I don't see it being any bodies business what had has done or what he wants to do with any or all donations. It's his to do whatever he wants to do with it.

Click to expand...

The donations were for the running costs of ACL, not his own personal bank account, and that is why quite a lot of us donated, to keep the server operational. Any funds spent to pay for hosting (Yes even for part of the cost of his personal ADSL link as that was where it was hosted), software etc is fine. I did not donate for Phil to buy coffee's or groceries, or crap off eBay etc. That was made clear by a lot of people donating at the time.

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So what your saying is if a string of pixels fail you just throw it away?

No you repair it. Same as a new. Just because it breaks down a few times doesn't mean you throw it away. You repair it.

Guys, I would like to say that the ACL team is investigating all options to ensure ACL stays strong and can grow into the future. We have had server issues in the past and they have been worked out and they will be worked out again. Other forums have gone through the same growing pains

The issue has always been the chat software and the high resources it demands, so just changing servers may not help with that and may be worse so all options need to be looked at very carefully.

The backup issue as already stated was caused by the chat software always demanding to much load to allow an auto backup to occor, Now lesson learnt. But Harrison has done a great job serving ACL and allowing us to use his bandwidth and allowing several members to host thier sites on his server. We are human and we do miss things but we do also learn.

People must remember that its a forum run to share knowledge and a common interest, but also it is run by people who give up their own time for free to ensure ACL stays strong now and into the future. The vison of ACL and its growth have far exceeded expectations (which is a good thing) but this also brings on issues like we have seen of recent that need to be managed and not by a knee jerk reaction.

As far as the money, then thats always been there ready, It possibly could be made to be a bit more visible for the members and again that will be looked into.

So ACL will continue to grow and is working on improving services either with its existing arrangement or alternative arrangements and the ACL funds will be used if needed.

So lets stop the negativity and remember what this forums success is built on.

Fasteddy said:

We are human and we do miss things but we do also learn.

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This

So lets stop the negativity and remember what this forums success is built on.

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and this.


On the positive side, it is great to see the enthusiasm towards ACL, sure it might come across as negativity, but you have to admit, people are passionate about it