First Shopping List.

BazzaV

New elf
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Messages
39
Location
Yass, NSW.
First Order (Mega Tree).

Just wanted to see if I’m on the right track for my first adventure into a Mega Tree (and lights in general). The tree will be 50 pixels up and down (12 runs of 100) with a tee in between for power injection. I am planning on two groups of 600 Pixels plus a star of 180 pixels with a Falcon controller (f16v3/4 depending on when the v4 is released). Doing it this way on the controller allows me room to expand/add more props later on. Is there anything else I need to consider in the order from Ray?

One question I do have is how long can you have a data run from the falcon controller? ie If I have the controller at the tree base how far away can I place other props before needing a receiver?

Lights (title says 18awg but description says 20awg?)
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32900119191.html?spm=2114.12010615.8148356.37.6971e08eyoeEWt

Tee’s
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001299617348.html?spm=2114.12010615.8148356.48.18c7aba8BEeygz

Xconnect (M and F)
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32901737170.html?spm=2114.12010615.8148356.12.6971e08eyoeEWt

End Caps
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32904955490.html?spm=2114.12010615.8148356.10.6971e08eyoeEWt
 

TerryK

Retired Elf
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Messages
655
Location
West Central Ohio
I do not see anything out of the ordinary with the male/female xConnects, Tees, or end caps. The lights however; the part number identifies the string as 20 AWG and 20 AWG is mentioned in a couple other sections too. The photos are mixed as well, that is regulated pixel type is not mentioned that I noticed but several of the photos appear to show regulated pixels. So I would take the cautious approach and either select something else or drop Ray an email and request he clarify the listing. If you email Ray make sure to reference the Part Number.

As to the length of a data line, straight from a controller to a string about 10 meter give or take. Nearby electrical noise, wire AWG size/voltage drop are a couple variables that effect the distance. Adding a Null pixel or F-Amp will extend the distance. An F-Amp will drive further than a Null pixel I believe and while I have not heard or seen anyone try it, I would think F-Amps could be daisy-chained if one was determined to avoid a receiver.
 

i13

Dedicated elf
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
1,172
Posting a shopping list like this is a great idea.

Answering the question about how far the data can run from the controller to the first pixel, there isn't a definite answer. The longest that I have tried is 3.5 metres from a J1sys controller which has a reputation for not sending the data as far as a Falcon can. This worked fine. There are ways to get the data to go much further. These include coaxial able (works with Falcons but not always with controllers from other vendors), pixel extenders and null pixels. A null pixel is a pixel that is added between the controller and first pixel on the display item because each pixel resends the signal. Null pixels can also be used between small display items on the same controller output. If you're going to have long runs of data to the first pixel then I'd recommend powering the first pixel with power injection and not through the controller.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the listing title saying 18 AWG and the description saying 20 AWG. You can order from Ray via email and specify details like that along with the spacing between the pixels. If you're going to mount the pixels then I suggest asking for a spacing that is slightly longer than you need because Ray's measurements aren't always perfect. It would be a good idea to specify "centre-to-centre" with bullet shaped nodes because some of the wire length is lost within the nodes themselves. Getting them spaced further apart than needed will increase the voltage drop between them which may or may not be enough to notice. I've even asked for black pixels in 5V with coloured 18 AWG wire because I don't like how the clear casing discolours in the sun. That said, the clear casing might be a better choice for a tree. It might offer a wider viewing angle if the pixels point outwards on the tree plus the light output doesn't seem to be affected when it discolours. These are the 12V black pixels. I recommend against buying them with black wire because it is hard to tell which wire is which https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32822044734.html

Other things that I recommend buying:
  • A pixel tester. It is convenient for making sure that wiring is correct and it saves you from putting the Falcon controller at risk if you mess something up. It also gives you time to wait for the F16v4 to be released https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32261108366.html
  • Extra pixels. Pixel failures are always possible and you might need some null pixels. I recommend making a couple of extra strands with a connector on each end so that you can swap them out if there's a faulty pixel on the tree.
It's a personal preference thing but I'd consider 5V pixels if I had a large number of pixels in a small area like this. It's a matter of compromising between power consumption and number of power supplies required (the main downsides of 12V) versus the number of injection points (the downside of 5V). TerryK makes a great point about the different types of 12V pixels. It would be a good idea to read this thread before buying 12V pixels https://auschristmaslighting.com/threads/12161/

Do you have a plan for setting up power supplies, enclosures and constructing the tree?
 

BazzaV

New elf
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Messages
39
Location
Yass, NSW.
I have a plan for the tree build. The enclosure, controller and power supply is still on the to do list. The tree will be positioned close to the house with a short (2m) run for mains power to it so at this stage I'm not too worried about that side of the fence. I can work on that when I have a plan for how it will all go together.

Just when I thought I had it sorted you go and throw 12v V 5v at me. I was only looking at power injecting at the base of the tree (for ease of construction), so every 100 pixels. If using 5v could you still only power inject at every 100 pixels? Based on 18awg with a control box placed at the base of the tree.
 

Old Salt

Apprentice elf
Joined
Dec 8, 2020
Messages
80
The rule of thumb is that power must be applied within 100 pixels for 12V, and within 50 pixels for 5V. For a 5V, 150 pixel string, power and data is applied at one end of the string, and power is injected between pixels 100 and 101. Power will go either or both ways on a wire, so the pixels will all be within 50 pixels of the power supply. Do not connect the +ve ends of two power supplies together. The -ve ends must be connected as they are also used for the data.

Last night the xLights Zoom meeting covered pixel failures. Check out http://pixel.report for the questions you need to ask your suppliers. Ray had a bad batch of pixels last year (can happen to anyone) but has replaced the bad ones for those who reported back to him.
 

TerryK

Retired Elf
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Messages
655
Location
West Central Ohio
...
Just when I thought I had it sorted you go and throw 12v V 5v at me. I was only looking at power injecting at the base of the tree (for ease of construction), so every 100 pixels. If using 5v could you still only power inject at every 100 pixels? ...
You are having quite a few thread tangents being thrown in your direction and for someone just beginning it can be rather overwhelming. Five volt versus 12 Volts is one of several very opinionated topics.
Briefly, 5 volt pixels are more energy efficient than 12 volt pixels. Regulated 12 Volt pixels are more immune to voltage drop than either 12 Volt Resistor or 5 Volt pixels. Resistor 12 Volt pixels appear to be more efficient than 12 Volt Regulated pixels but I do not yet know quite why (one of the areas where my test data falls apart).
One can drive more 5 Volt pixels from a supply than 12 Volt pixels but the reason has more to do with supply design than pixel efficiency. Using a 350 Watt Meanwell as an example, their 5 Volt supply can shove about 60 Amp while their 12 Volt supply is only about 29 Amp. Pretty much the same power capability in the supplies (350 Watt) but completely different amperage capacity.

Yes, you should be able to inject every 100 pixels but (there's always a 'but' isn't there?) it depends upon a fews things. Several are pixel drive level, single end or double end injection, and voltage drop (supply to string). MEGA trees being a quantity of pixels in a compact area drive levels are usually low, so if desired the number of pixels between power injection can be greater. Without knowing your intended drive level I would double end inject and that keeps your display in the 5 Volt 50 pixel 'Rule Of Thumb'. I would add however that depending upon how exactly the power injection is implemented you may want/need to sub-fuse your power injection cables.
 

Kotche

Apprentice elf
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Messages
54
I would very much love for you to post your final shopping list once you're done. I may just follow suit as a guide to my own first venture.
 

BazzaV

New elf
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Messages
39
Location
Yass, NSW.
Ahhh. /clunk. The penny has dropped. Thanks TerryK and Old Salt. I see where I was going wrong now with my power injection. I was only looking at the power going forward of the injection point. Hence my thought of doing 12v and injecting only at the bottom of the tree to keep it simple and not having to run power up the tree. I see now that 5v will only require power injection at the bottom also. 12v will only require power injection every second down leg. Such a simple oversight.

Back to the planning board to see how 5v works out.
 

i13

Dedicated elf
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
1,172
TerryK, the reason why some of the resistor 12V pixels appear to be more efficient is that they run the LEDs at a lower current to further combat voltage drop. This is done at the expense of brightness so they aren't any more efficient but it does increase the number that can be run per power supply. The human eye doesn't respond linearly to the brightness so the difference isn't as noticeable as you'd expect.

I would like to add that while TerryK is correct about power supplies and their current capacities, you could look at it in terms of power consumption (wattage) and then yes, the efficiency of the pixels is the reason that 5V can have more per power supply. If both supplies are 350 watts and you could load one up with 5V pixels at 0.275 watts each or the other with 12V at 0.66 watts each then this is how the efficiency could be thought of as the reason. These values are on the high side but I like to overengineer things.

Lowering the brightness reduces the power consumption and the voltage drop so 12V and 5V will behave more similarly to each other. What brightness do you plan to run the pixels at?

Try to keep your injection cables short and thick. There will be some voltage drop between the power supply and first pixel. I overengineer things and I don't have any places in my display where there are 5V pixel nodes that are 50 away from the injection point. The other forum members seem to think 5V will work here and I think they're likely to be correct if you're careful about your cable lengths and thicknesses. This includes the injection cables and the cable between the pixels. Note that a short section of thinner cable is less of a problem than a long section because voltage drop happens over distance. You can have significant voltage drop occurring without exceeding the current rating of the cable; thicker is better for power.
 

TerryK

Retired Elf
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Messages
655
Location
West Central Ohio
... I was only looking at the power going forward of the injection point. Hence my thought of doing 12v and injecting only at the bottom of the tree to keep it simple and not having to run power up the tree. I see now that 5v will only require power injection at the bottom also. 12v will only require power injection every second down leg. Such a simple oversight. ...
Power injection is yet another very opinionated topic; a good example exists in this thread between what both I and i13 have described in our posts. We each have our methods. I suggest watching Bill Porter's video if you have not seen it. It's I think pretty good and can be found on YouTube by searching his name and VSC2020.
Also if you have not, I suggest searching in the Forum Archives for power injection to see what has previously been discussed. Single ended power injection is straight forward but double ended can have the V+ separate between string segments or carried through. Each method has its advantages (and disadvantages).
 

BazzaV

New elf
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Messages
39
Location
Yass, NSW.
So after a bit more looking I have found these lights to replace the 12v ones with. Set up will be the same as my first post but less power supplies will be needed.


Yes, I will be buying extra lights (and a pixel tester now) as I will need some for extra props and the star. Total needed for the tree/star will be 1380 pixels.
 

TerryK

Retired Elf
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Messages
655
Location
West Central Ohio
I think you will find those to be a better choice; 18 AWG and 4 inch spacing. I also would not be to concerned as to having a pixel tester. I have a small one purchased from BTF Lighting which I seldom use. Typically I now use a temporary Falcon F4 setup.
 

i13

Dedicated elf
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
1,172
I'm probably just repeating myself here but...

I suggest that you don't just accept the spacing as it is. If you plan to place the lights closer than 100mm apart then you may as well order them spaced closer to reduce voltage drop. Just be careful when specifying the spacing, especially with bullet nodes because some of the wire length is lost within each node. I've found Ray's spacing to be reasonably accurate (within 10mm) in the past when I specified "centre to centre" but some headroom is still a good idea, especially with 18 AWG wire. The 18 AWG wire is stiffer than thinner wire so it will curve from pixel to pixel.

I frequently use my US $2.50 pixel tester. If you decide not to order one now, it is always possible to get them from Ebay. It might be a couple of dollars more but that's nothing in the scheme of things.
 

BazzaV

New elf
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Messages
39
Location
Yass, NSW.
I'll stick with the 100mm spacing for my first buy as I'm still not sure what my spacing will be. I was initially thinking of 50mm spacing but due to the distance from the road (18m from tree location to gutter), I am now considering going 75mm spacing. This will make the tree about 3600mm high plus the star. Would 75mm spacing be too great a spacing for the viewing distance?
 

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i13

Dedicated elf
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
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Will this be a flat, 180 degree or 360 degree tree? What will be the spacing of the strands at the base of the tree? I ask because the overall density of the tree depends on the spacing between each strand just like it depends on the spacing between the lights within each strand.

Ther won't be a definite answer for the best spacing to use.
 
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