Controller Options - First Year

[Ambarta]

Hi All,

It's my first year of pixel Christmas lighting this year, however I have been working as an entertainment lighting technician for 10+ years ranging from arena/stadium tours as an operator, too larger theatrical productions. However, grandMA2 and disguise media server knowledge is leaving me rather stumped in this realm.

I've attached a screenshot of what I want to achieve this year via pixels. Whilst I understand a 4.5m 48 strand 3D Megatree is a big undertaking in the first year, with the knowledge I have and some like minded industry mates I believe its achievable.
Please note, I haven't measured out all of the arches and house outline yet, so those pixel numbers are all over the shop - planning on doing 50mm spacing all around.
The stars I haven't picked the exact model yet, so haven't built all the sudmodels.
Here are my main questions.

What would be the best way to control these pixels allowing for further expansion as well?
I plan on making this display significantly larger in the coming years, as i am also integrating moving lights and other lighting elements and using it as part of my portfolio.
I've been looking at Advatek vs Falcon debates everywhere. My initial idea was to go with a V3 with two expansion boards for the mega tree and running all 48 strings individually.
I know this isn't "efficient" but it seems like a really clean way of doing things for the sake of one extra expansion board.
Plus running the 48 and sending receiver boards all over the yard and roof.
Pricing all this up with Falcon seems to be around 1500 usd. I would ideally like to keep that purchase in Australia, but I didn't understand Advatek/Hansons boards as well and struggled to piece together how i'd run the system.

Also, what are some control options to control multiple devices on different protocols

For example. I want to put 16 moving lights in the yard, smoke, snow, haze, maybe bubbles, potentially a few lasers, Led Bars, Led Pars, Strobes etc.

So for me at work currently, i'd have an MA Console, an ArtNet/MA Node running dmx.
Pangolin controlling lasers.
I'd also have a media server tied in generating and either projecting or displaying content on an LED Wall and also potentially generating pixel content for an LED lighting rig.
What I'm trying to work out is how to tie xLights into the equation, or whether there is more appropriate software? Things like Madrix exist, however come with an insane pricetag.
Is there a way to trick Xlights into receiving NDI from resolume or the type as a video input?
Is there a way to control xLights via timecode/midi and the like?

I know there is a lot bundled into that, but hopefully someone has the answers i'm looking for.

Thanks in Advance

Pat

 

[Mark_M]

Hello and Welcome @Ambarta !
Good to see you have a background in theatre/concert lighting. I've never done pixels with the Chamsys console I use. Mostly because I don't have a media server to do so. But I have heard around that xLights supposedly can take execution commands from lighting consoles and then send the bulk data to the controllers.
Last year was my first year even using a digital lighting console, it's a pain trying to work out the Chamsys menus! Give me a GrandMA!

My display (for my first year) is a Falcon F48 and xLights. The show file is on a Raspberry Pi single board computer which outputs to the F48.

xLights is really were it's at. Falcons and xLights go hand and hand. Just create your display setup in xLights and it uploads output definitions to the controller. The F16v3 and F48 can both handle 16,000 pixels. That is a big display for your first year!

Using another sequencer just means you need to tell the pixel controller what channels go to which port.
LightShow Pro and any other software can be used if you're knowledgeable.

As a note (you've probably figured it out already...): Most people use 510 channels as a universe. Because it's divisible by 3 for 3 channel pixels.

Terms so you understand what most people here refer to as:

• Node - single pixel bulb/LED.
• Strand - strings of lights connected to each other. It's one line of pixels from a single output, but software knows to break up into different strings.
• E1.31 - Basically sACN.

Falcons support E1.31 and artNET.

an ArtNet/MA Node running dmx

Falcon's do have a port which can output a single DMX 512 universe. This saves needing a 'node' to output to DMX XLR.
We still can use a 'nodes'. A Raspberry Pi works well for this.

Pangolin controlling lasers.

In a xEssentials video there was a presentation about bigger show lasers using ILDA for precise control.

For example. I want to put 16 moving lights in the yard

With it being E1.31 (sACN) I think you can tell xLights where moving head models are (start channel) and plug the Ethernet line in and out. My small venue only needs one universe (XLR) for the whole lot, I haven't played with any Ethernet lighting networks apart from pixels. Moving heads and anything DMX is a little tricky in xLights. Model 'states' is advised otherwise your adjusting each channels value individually. And I don't think xLights has an FX engine to create pan/tilt data. It's not as simple as selecting the fixture and move in a circle.

Is there a way to control xLights via timecode/midi and the like?

xLights does have some support for MIDI. I have absolutely no knowledge on how.

I'd also have a media server tied in generating and either projecting or displaying content on an LED Wall and also potentially generating pixel content for an LED lighting rig.
What I'm trying to work out is how to tie xLights into the equation, or whether there is more appropriate software? Things like Madrix exist, however come with an insane pricetag.

LED panels, what most people here use is the bare panels and a Raspberry Pi computer taking in E1.31. This is were you might hear 'Octoscroller' being used. The Octoscroller is a board that plugs into the Raspberry Pi to output to panels.
But this is bare panels. I have no idea for commercially made one. You might just be able to give it sACN?

We can also use these Raspberry Pi's to act as master and slave. One pi keeps timing while the other send out bulk data to their controllers. Sort of like a lighting console with pixel servers.
Channel numbers get big fast!

I would ideally like to keep that purchase in Australia,

Most get pixels from known suppliers on Aliexpress.
@darylc just had a bulk buy for anyone in AU/NZ to get a Falcon with cheaper shipping. I think he may have spares if you would like to order. I've heard that the Falcon supplier doesn't ship to AU/NZ so this is why Daryl kindly imports them in bulk.

For example. I want to put 16 moving lights in the yard, smoke, snow, haze, maybe bubbles, potentially a few lasers, Led Bars, Led Pars, Strobes etc.

I'm sure you know about moving heads and other high end lighting. Keep it protected outside! Bubble domes and even a black spot in park position to prevent UV light destroying the optics.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the end of this; you will see that this hobby has ripped off a few theatre/concert lighting elements.
We can run an entire show off a Raspberry Pi! Who needs to spend thousands!
Don't get me wrong; it would be epic to have a GrandMA in the living room running it .

For example. I want to put ....... haze

Hahaha. Classic lighting guy, More haze! I like it!

 

[cwguinther]

I'm not sure 1500usd is going to pay for all that. Having just ordered 4000 pixels and a few small extras, it was close to 1000usd including the shipping.

 

[Ambarta]

@cwguinther 96 That price was only in relation to the controllers. Pixels and everything else is in a separate budget.

@Mark_M

Thankyou for the detailed response. I am definitely planning on using xlights to control the pixels and output the data to the controllers, what I was wondering is whether I could control xLights via an external source as well? Programming all the other elements of the show, is easy for me on one of the MAs I own, but linking it together becomes a bit awkward. I think that i can program all pixel elements of the show in xLights, program all of the other lighting elements on a console and then have an on pc console trigger both the xlights show and the timecoded other elements nightly. This also allows for a level of automation that isn't quite there through xlights (Lamping on fixtures, pre hazing etc)

I'm planning to source the pixels from Ray Wu, as i already purchase other LED products from him for work.
@darylc can you confirm if what Mark said above is correct and you do have some boards spare from that order?

For the raspberry Pi setups, do you run a pi at each controller and a master somewhere? is there a limit on this?
Thanks for the concept of consoles and servers to understand that pi network also.
Is there specific advantages to doing this as opposed to all controllers running to a switch and a PC running the show??

Thanks again

 

[Mark_M]

Programming all the other elements of the show, is easy for me on one of the MAs I own

It's far easier in a timeline with preview, 3D preview if you like. Unless GrandMA can allow custom fixtures you won't find a Christmas tree in there.
xLights is like a video editor. You aren't doing cue stacks with timing between.

Even using the console to keep timing isn't necessary. The sequence file combines with the song file. Unless you tell the player to speed up its going to be at the speed you sequenced it.

program all of the other lighting elements on a console and then have an on pc console trigger both the xlights show and the timecoded other elements nightly.

You're making it far to complicated for what it is. xLights will do DMX fixtures. You've just got to sequence to each channel value.
I'm not expert on xLights MIDI but there might be a timing cue in there somewhere if you're really despite to combine interfaces.

@darylc can you confirm if what Mark said above is correct and you do have some boards spare from that order?

Falcon F16v3 & F48 E1.31 pixel controller 2020 interest thread

Since I've started being asked about this I better post a thread. Whilst I've not given it any thought at this stage, I assume that we will do a 2020 bulk buy similar to the previous ones. If you interact with this post (like, vote etc) then I'll let you know when the buy opens.

auschristmaslighting.com

For the raspberry Pi setups, do you run a pi at each controller and a master somewhere? is there a limit on this?

This is FPP from Falcon. It has Master, remote, etc. It's really once you max your main Pi that you need another one. I think you can run at least 3 controllers (48, 000) pixels off one before another is needed.
I wouldn't worry.
One Pi as standalone would suffice.

Is there specific advantages to doing this as opposed to all controllers running to a switch and a PC running the show??

FPP is so your PC isn't needed to run the show. It's a mini computer with enough power to read the show sequence and tell each controller what to do. For the cheap price it's worth it.
Otherwise xLights has xScheduler to run the show.

This also allows for a level of automation that isn't quite there through xlights (Lamping on fixtures, pre hazing etc)

FPP and xLights own show player have intro and finish playlists.
This means it could play a sequence (or more) then go onto the main playlist. The main playlist will loop as many times as needed until finish time is near. Once the scheduled time is near the main playlist would stop and the finish playlist would start.

Start - 19:30	Introduction sequence - 2 min.
Main playlist	(Loops): Songs go here.... (any length of time)
End - 21:00	Finishing sequence - 2min

If you want to research more into functions, FPP and xLights can have plugins for various functions. Like getting the days till Christmas on a matrix.
With a Raspberry Pi it can allow the GPIO pins to trigger an event. Someone pushes a button and it could change the song or display an overlay sequence.

This also allows for a level of automation ( pre hazing etc).

Is this for your house or a venue?
I'm pretty sure there isn't going to be much haze when the wind blows. Haze isn't so much of a feature on it's own compared to Fog.

 

[Ambarta]

@Mark_M

Thanks once again. I'm planning on using Mac Viper Performances, because they're the fixture I have access too. They are 40 Channel each. So in theory that would then be 6400 channels to update per action. I'm quick on the keyboard, but not quite that fast. Unless i'm not understanding the xlights dmx interaction as i should be?
I can also imagine programming those fixtures in xlights would be absolutely infuriating with no fixture profiles or fx engine relevant.

Because this is going to be a showcase linked to my business as well as a christmas display, it adds some complications. xLights is not designed to handle these types of fixtures, because they're $25000 a pop and never going to be used in this capacity in a conventional sense.


Mostly what i'm questioning, is can I program a sequence in x lights, say, 3.00 minutes long.
Program another sequence on something more appropriate for the mainstream gear, timecoded at 3.00 long. Then have MAonPC trigger both sequences simultaneously. I explicitly plan on programming the pixels in x lights. I just want to know if i can start the entire xLights sequence from a console.

I'm not specifically trying to over complicate something, i'm just trying to avoid dealing with 6000 channels of data to be input(if using every function on the light) for one action.

The way I understand it, is if i wanted the fixtures to move in a circle, change colour between red and blue every second with a specific beam size and gobo.
I would have to go through the tilt, colour, zoom, focus, and red attribute and put a manual value in, then create another effect immediately after and alter the colour to blue, 0 out the red and tilt the fixture back up.

That seems like a hell of a lot of work as opposed to slapping a sin wave on the tilt attribute and some form of premade bump colour effect if that makes sense?

2 MDG units, will keep a nice diffused haze around the house - yet again, not really christmas spec, but just what I have access too.
These are what we use for more outdoor festival orientated shows, so they're alright out in the elements.

This is going on my house, I just have access to alot of resources from my business as well.

 

[Mark_M]

I can also imagine programming those fixtures in xlights would be absolutely infuriating with no fixture profiles or fx engine relevant.

Yes.

That seems like a hell of a lot of work as opposed to slapping a sin wave on the tilt attribute and some form of premade bump colour effect if that makes sense?

Value sweep.

That's an option in DMX channel value, to have a preset curve over time. Two half sine waves for pan and tilt would give a circle (according to the chat).
Gil Jones has some videos on their YouTube account about DMX and servos. Including setup.

Gil Jones

www.youtube.com

2 MDG units, will keep a nice diffused haze around the house

Please don't tell me you're spending the money on the MDG hazers that use a CO2 tank. Like a CO2 tank each week? That is an expensive show!

My god I would die for an MDG hazer in my venue. Whisper quiet CO2 version..... what a dream.
I just mentioned about MDG hazers on the chat 5 minutes ago lol.

 

[Ambarta]

I sure am, yet again, have an amazing deal with BOC because we use them year round.

The tl;dr of this is that Corona destroying the entertainment industry has left me with wayyyyy wayyyy wayyy too much time on my hands.

The other side of it also, is if I spend a couple of thousand, and pick up one job from it next year, there is a good chance i'd be back in profit. Plus i'll have 10000~ total pixels and controllers to add into my business' stock between Mid Jan and November. That's the other reason i'm going down the path of deciding controllers in such detail. So i can re purpose them into the industry if required. Set LX are becoming a huge thing these days.

 

[Mark_M]

Corona destroying the entertainment industry

Agreed. I'm only in my school theatre with a cute Chamsys. But already I've lost a bit of pixel pocket money.

That's the other reason i'm going down the path of deciding controllers in such detail. So i can re purpose them into the industry if required. Set LX are becoming a huge thing these days.

Oh....
I would heavily focus more on getting commercial ones working for your home lights than the other way around.

I'm yet to see about pixels on the Chamsys, let alone setting up a show. Not much information in the manual about pixels :/

 

[Mark_M]

From Great Christmas Light Fight show;
'Lights on Jacob Lane' have big boy moving heads.

In their normal display they don't seem to have them out.

Lights on Jacob Lane | Brewerton NY

Lights on Jacob Lane, Brewerton, New York. 9,411 likes · 1 talking about this. We have loved sharing our nationally recognized Christmas light spectacular with you! Stay tuned for where you may see...

www.facebook.com

Lights on Jacob Lane

www.youtube.com

 

[TANSA]

Pat
To continue with the Advatek/Falcon ever lasting debate.
I run 1 x Pixlite-16-MkII and a PixLite-4-ECO-MkII, I did purchase a Falcon 16V3 to see what all the fuss was all about.
Falcon is better supported by xLights
Advatek has more DMX and I think is more leaning towards the professional side of lighting.
Falcon supports multiple different formats (WS2811 etc..) at the same time off the one controller.
Advatek you have to pick one (WS2811 etc..)
Falcon you can do funky things with each port, Advtek is limited.
I am a sparky and I like to keep things the same and simple, even though I program PLC's and home automation. (KISS works)
It is all down to personal preference, but if I started again I would still go Advatek but long rang and the remote boards that go with it.
Lock at what you can use for your other job and what software you have that will support which controller.
I would hate being in your shoes in this complex decision.

 

[Ambarta]

@Mark_M Yeah that was what I was thinking. However, after pricing up pixelators (enttec product which we would commonly use in the industry) it's just a little too far out of my budget this year. I figured I'd buy the industry standard controller at the time of the job if it arose.

After a day of playing around with xLights, and xSchedule i've worked out how to control it all from a console.
Thanks for your help.

@SAALTFAM
I'm seriously trying to work out the best option at the moment. Advatek is gaining some bonus points based on the USD rates at the moment.
What i can't quite work out, is the best way of doing my setup with advatek. My megatree for example, i was going to use and V316 and two expansion boards and run each string individually. It's not an efficient use of a controller, but it makes everything clean and simple and i can run one full base and vertical string without needing to power inject.
My yard I was going to have a central F48 and then have smart receivers around the yard and roof. This allows me for so much future expansion as well.
If you had the time, could you explain how you would do it with advatek products? It seems like it could be a significantly cheaper option, but im not exactly sure what I need.

In regards to my job, i think the easiest way is to have separate controllers for work and home. Purchasing expensive controllers at work for pixels at the time is a much better option I think. Mostly the interaction with work will be the pixels themselves and also demonstrative type purposes.

 

[TANSA]

Power injection is a must for me running 5v.
From the 16 (Max about 800 per port for 40fps)
The tree is 2 ports of 400 pixel each but changing to 800 pixels each this year if all the bits arrive. Pixel strip from extreme lighting, new base will be made this week if we don’t go into lockdown.
1 port does a 498 pixel matrix.

From the 4 eco as it can only do max 600 per port (eco)
The other matrix which was the old tree 800 pixels off 2 ports. (2x400)

All these above I only run data and negative from the controller and power from the supply but all negatives are tied together from each controller, the controller and all associated power supplies negatives are joined/looped/connected (must do for the data to work properly)

off the 16 I also run a 30 channel DMX converter (PWM) to run dumb RGB lights at 12v the negative on this power supply also gets tied to the negative of the 5v power supply.

During lunch tomorrow I will try to draw it out if I get time for lunch. Might also take a pic of the 16 and DMX before I mount in the new box.

 

[DavidJ247]

Hey Ambarta, seems we have a few things in common, fellow lighting/screen tech here in Vic and I have been involved with Christmas lights and ACL for many years. No doubt there is alot of cross-over with what we do in entertainment lighting and many of the concepts and protocols are the same, but there are also some distinct differences and a totally different set of equipment and terminology to learn. Feel free to reach out if you need to talk through any of your plans (after all, us lampies have plenty of time on our hands at the moment!)

You'll be amazed at how advanced Christmas lighting software is when compared to professional console software. For example, high universe counts, pixel mapping and video overlay are relatively new to console software but have been used in Christmas lighting for years. Also, the development of free/open Christmas light software moves at a ridiculously fast pace when compared to the the likes of MA, Hog, Avo etc. The big difference of course is pre-programmed shows vs. live events, we typically have 11 months of the year to build a Christmas show and simply playback the sequences, whereas live events usually have limited programming time and require good tools to be able to busk on the fly. I wouldn't be comfortable with an xLights rig on a rock show just like I wouldn't want to stand behind a console every night in December but both are awesome in their own way!

If you haven't already, check out xSchedule, it is an extension program to xLights and does many many things but specifically related to your questions, it can act as an interface between sequences and devices with a number of different protocols including art-net, sacn and midi. This might be the solution to get your sequences integrated with resolume/madrix/MA and the like.

Sounds like you have some great plans, enjoy and best of luck. Keep us all posted.

Cheers, David.

 

[Ambarta]

Hey David

That's really cool, I suppose to be expected when you think about it, but didn't know if i'd come across anyone here.
The more i'm learning on xLights the more impressive it is in some ways. I spent in excess of $85000 on my MA 3 Full and couldn't even control half the parameters that you can with xLights, A falcon setup and a PC from 2013. It's insane how durable it is.

My main issue above was not knowing about xSchedule, that pretty much answered my whole question.
I'm just going to timecode my movers and run them off on PC just for ease. Still planning to fully pre program and have my consoles on the road long before christmas (hopefully)

The only reason I was interested in seeing if I could connect Resolume, was my existing large library of visuals. But I've just chosen to record the clips I want individually and insert them via video. Just easier and keeps it simple.

I'll shoot you some plans when i'm done, smashing them out in VW today.