Using Copyrighted Music

[Skymaster]

im sure the donations refers to donating to the people who are doing the display (ie you, people cant dontate to you to saay thankyou ), taking donations for other charities would be exempt, thats how i would understand that

If you take the donations for anything it's not allowed. However - if you put a QR code up for XYZ charity - then YOU are not doing anything, they are doing the collecting of money.

so do we need to get a bradcast licence if were only transmitting on 0.5mw and the reach distance is only 50m max
and if so who do we apply to the ACMA ?

Officially yes. Will you get one, unlikely. Is it dodgy do it without one, yes. But if you're not stupid, you keep your power levels down, dont clobber frequencies, dont transmit anything obscene, etc, it's unlikely anything will happen.

 

[Juddge]

if we use pulse mesh because it only allows you to view and listen to sites withing a radius of your device ( phone / ipad)
do we need a broadcast licence ? or is the apra licence enough ? i understand needing a acma licence for broadcasing FM but streamiing is diffirent

pulesmesh only allows people to view / listen to sites within a radius of the actual site address listed for the stream

but tune2, is accessable as long as you know the 4 digit code, (XDWA) example, so to me that means its wordwide broadcast not a local broadcast

so pulse mesh would be classified as local broadcast but Tune2 would be pure streaming only ?

 

[Juddge]

this is why im leaning towards pulsemesh this year, i used tune 2 last year, as my street you cant really park out the front, so FM even though i have it, is not really an option,
i really prefer people to park up the street and walk down to enjoy the show, so im going to have QR codes for pulse mesh in my yard, and a push button speaker for people who dont have phones, so im assuming as its a private dedicated stream that only works for phones within a limited radius of the site address, that only my apra licence will be needed as its not really a broadcast

 

[Skymaster]

do we need a broadcast licence ? or is the apra licence enough ? i understand needing a acma licence for broadcasing FM but streamiing is diffirent

ACMA is for use of the FM frequency- streaming is not broadcast so you should be OK.

pulesmesh only allows people to view / listen to sites within a radius of the actual site address listed for the stream

That's just geofencing for the stream.


APRA would be required for royalties for any 'transmission'.

 

[SmartAlecLights]

getting the FM licence is easy as sending a email. narrowcasters@apra.com.au
Felicity makes it easy.
my email example from last year

My name is **************,
I would like to apply for a FM Complimentary Narrowcaster licence for 2025.

It's for my annual Christmas computerised display, Where the lights are in sync to Music,
Its played on a speaker (footpath), and over a low powered FM transmitter (people in there cars).
All the equipment is owned by myself.
I don't accept donations
My show will be running from the 20th of Nov till the 1st of Jan

Thats what i used last year. (please change to suit your show)
Thanks..

 

[christmasdave]

if we use pulse mesh because it only allows you to view and listen to sites withing a radius of your device ( phone / ipad)
do we need a broadcast licence ? or is the apra licence enough ? i understand needing a acma licence for broadcasing FM but streamiing is diffirent

pulesmesh only allows people to view / listen to sites within a radius of the actual site address listed for the stream

but tune2, is accessable as long as you know the 4 digit code, (XDWA) example, so to me that means its wordwide broadcast not a local broadcast

so pulse mesh would be classified as local broadcast but Tune2 would be pure streaming only ?

This is why I’ve emailed OneMusic for clarification.

Looking into it a bit, APRA covers the songwriters, artists and composers while OneMusic will cover the Recording Labels (and artists too)

I asked chatGPT to summarise for me and it’s made it clearer than I can:

• Streaming (via PulseMesh.io)
  This is different:
  • APRA AMCOS covers the compositions.
  • But the streaming of actual recordings usually also requires PPCA/OneMusic permission, since recordings are being transmitted online to the public.
  • This is why PulseMesh says: “If you use music outside the US, you’re responsible for licensing.”
• So yes — APRA alone cannot cover online streaming. For the streaming part, you may need OneMusic (or in some cases, PPCA directly if OneMusic doesn’t cover your exact use case).

Hopefully I get a reply in the next few days

 

[christmasdave]

Quick update re Streaming via PulseMesh

I have a reply from Felicity at APRA, but still waiting on a reply from OneMusic.

Reply from Felicity;

Hi David

The complimentary narrowcaster licence for your Christmas light display covers the broadcast of musical works over a radio frequency only.

If you were to provide a streaming service, it’s likely you would need some kind of online licence in place. From a brief review of their website, it seems they provide the platform (as you mention below), providing the appropriate licences are in place. How long would you be planning to have the display potentially streamed? We have an Online Mini licence that could apply, but it’s an annual licence, starting at $250 + GST. We have another ‘Special Event’ type licence that could include streaming, but this is around $20 per day so would likely be quite cost prohibitive.

Let me know if you’d like to proceed with the streaming option and we can chat further as to what would be the most cost-effective option for you.

Kind Regards

Felicity

I’ll be chatting more with her and update again soon.

I know the likelihood of anything actually happening without an appropriate licence is minimal, but personally , if it does come down to the $250 option, considering the $ I’ve put into this hobby, it’s just a drop in the ocean

I’d definitely at least try it for this year, see what the public usage is and then revisit for next year.

 

[christmasdave]

Bit of an update for streaming. (Apologies for spelling/format, I’m on mobile atm)

It’s starting to get a little more complicated unfortunately (why did I go down this rabbit hole!)

As per my last comment, Felicity from APRA confirmed that the narrowcast licence does NOT cover streaming, and passed my details to their Online team for info about the Online Mini Licence. More unfortunately there is no complimentary licence for this.

I’ve just started speaking with Katherine from the Online Mini Licence team today who confirmed a few things;

1. Licence cost starts from $275 (annual).
2. Licence only covers use of the musical compositions, NOT the sound recordings.
3. An additional licence is required from PPCA which covers the sound recordings.
4. No additional licensing required from OneMusic.

I’ve now shot an email off to PPCA seeking further info from them (licence types, is there a complimentary one similar to APRA, cost, etc.). Most likely licence type will be non-interactive streaming service licence from what I can see.

I have also asked Katherine if there is something akin to a ‘group’ licence, but I’m not confident of a positive answer on that front.

I’m starting to think that dependant on total cost of (legally… ) streaming, radio and speakers are King.

Anyway I think that’s it for now. I’ll update again for anyone interested once I know more.

 

[Juddge]

i already got a reply frpm ppca - $250 for a 1 month streaming licence
conditions
users cannot pick and change the stream songs, - like spotify
users cannot download the songs
users cannot access the information later and play it back
and music licencen is still needed

 

[christmasdave]

i already got a reply frpm ppca - $250 for a 1 month streaming licence
conditions
users cannot pick and change the stream songs, - like spotify
users cannot download the songs
users cannot access the information later and play it back
and music licencen is still needed

Oh awesome! Thank you
So all up ~$525 for the 2 licences required. Hmm, will need to think on this. I’m in a small town and don’t get hundreds of people like some displays do. I don’t mind paying, but I’d want it to get good use if I do.

 

[Skymaster]

users cannot pick and change the stream songs, - like spotify

This is a very important condition that negates the ability to use remote Falcon, one of the key drivers for mobile interactivity.
Something to keep in mind.

 

[christmasdave]

This is a very important condition that negates the ability to use remote Falcon, one of the key drivers for mobile interactivity.
Something to keep in mind.

That’s a very good point.
I read the condition as meaning the app being used (ie PulseMesh) can’t offer interactivity. A user solely using it does not have that ability.

RF used to change what plays on the display, as a side effect that means PulseMesh will play what was chosen but was not directly interacted with to do so.

I’ll have to ask and see what they say unless someone already has.

 

[Juddge]

This is a very important condition that negates the ability to use remote Falcon, one of the key drivers for mobile interactivity.
Something to keep in mind.

i think they would mean, they cannot change music to suit themselves, if its a global change for the whole display, falcon remote would be ok, i think they mean you cant just provide music for people to play randomly - seperately like it was just a spotify account
because falcon player is limited to the songs you have selected, and the change would be global for the entire display and all listners and only local at the display, i dont see this as user stream but just a user selection for the entire display

 

[Skymaster]

It's an interesting legal question and not something we can answer here.
How we (or a forum juddge) might interpret the law, licensing regulations and other bits might be completely different to the way a (legal) judge would interpret them.
It seems that @christmasdave is having all these conversations with the appropriate bodies so that'll be interesting to see what comes out of it

Ultimately the simplest is to offer only local speakers and you're 100% sorted as it's considered private performance.

(The name was too good not to use in the explanation, it's not a targeted reply )

 

[christmasdave]

Ok, so I think I have some answers for those following along. Sure has been fun..

To begin with, oddly enough some of the information from PPCA is classed as confidential (not sure why, but was stated to me on the original email I received). I did ask what I could share and received this response;

"..In terms of sharing information about the licence, you are welcome to share information about our licensing options that is available on our website (such as our licensing page). In terms of the licensing costs and other details, we ask that these remain confidential as PPCA reviews each applicant on a case by case basis. Members of your community are welcome to email our Business Affairs website with any queries."

So while I cannot share the specific price and some other details quoted to me (not really anything of substance anyway), if you do decide to go down this avenue, you should expect costs upwards of $250 (excl GST)... However, this is for the non-interactive licence. As @Skymaster pointed out, Remote Falcon could throw a spanner in the works... and it does unfortunately.

When I bought up RF and explained how it works, this was the reply;

The use of Remote Falcon by listeners to control which songs are playing on the stream would be considered an interactive element which is prohibited under the non-interactive licence. Under the license, a user/listener must not be able to choose which sound recordings they hear, or the times at which they hear them, or be otherwise able to control the nature and timing of the sound recordings that are streamed.

I did make it clear that RF is not controlling the stream directly, but as a result of it effecting the stream in any manner, this still counts. This would mean another licence would have to be applied for, and I would imagine that this would also mean higher costs.

It was mentioned that contacting the copyright holders (artists, record labels and record companies) directly was an option. I looked into doing that for all of 5 minutes before realising how messy and time consuming that would be.

In summary, if you want to use PulseMesh without RF and have all the appropriate licences in place, expect to pay upwards of $550 (excl GST) to cover both the required APRA AMCOS (~$275) and PPCA ($?) licences.
If you want to use RF as well, then I have no idea on the final costs, but I would imagine it won't be cheap.

On top of all of this, with PulseMesh moving to a free/paid model, if using the free account, "..Free users may be limited to 4 concurrent viewers depending on the load on the PulseMesh system.." (https://pulsemesh.io/docs). So you would also need to take into account any potential costs on the PulseMesh side of things too.

I guess each show will have to decide how to tackle this, but for me personally, and while I know we all put quite a bit of $ into the hobby already, the cost just isn't worth it. I'd rather spend the money of the display itself (should I get MH's yet.. haha). I may still use PulseMesh for testing purposes, but radio and speakers will remain King for now.

For anyone that wants to go down this path and do everything above board;

• APRA AMCOS Digital Licensing: digital@apra.com.au
• PPCA: Business.Affairs@ppca.com.au
  • PPCA List of licensors: https://www.ppca.com.au/labels/list-of-licensors

I hope this had been informative, , happy to answer questions of confirm any details here or via PM.