DougieB
Full time elf
Ed. These look fantastic. Just a newb question, could someone please explain the different between the P2 and the D2 and what you would use the X2 for
Thanks
Doug
Thanks
Doug
ECG-P2, ECG-D2, XCG-X2A preview ....
- Thread starter j1sys
- Start date
Px = Pixel output
Dx = DMX output
X2 = optional extra 2 pixel outputs
Dx = DMX output
X2 = optional extra 2 pixel outputs
- Thread starter
- #18
David's answer is 'technically' correct and how most people will take advantage of the XCG-X2A.
But ....
The ECG-P2, ECG-D2, and DCG-P2 (dmx -> pixel, not yet announced) and other future units have connectors to allow a small expansion (X2) board to sit on top. This still fits in the case and custom end panels will be available for all combinations.
The first in the series, the XCG-X2A (hence the 'A') includes 4 dip switches to locally control more setup options, 4 LEDs to help diagnose the unit, a microSD slot to install a microSD flash card with sequencing information on it, a Real-Time-Clock w/battery backup, and two connectors that look and can act like two single universe pixel connectors.
The two 'greenies' (our 1x4 3.5mm pluggable screw terminals) can also be configured with jumpers and software to act as four individual inputs or outputs (not bi-directional). these can be used to sense a push button switch or activate some other external functions.
So why do you want all this? Most people will just use the dip switches, LEDs, and be excited that for $15 they can get 2 more pixels strings. but future use of the microSD and the other forms of I/O should allow us to start doing standalone lighting for gardens, signs, attraction kiosks, etc. all with the same hardware. The addition of a real time clock will allow the user to schedule their garden lights to start/stop based on time of day etc.
Many people will use the basic board with no expansion to do fixture or panel oriented pixel control or for ridge line or icicle type displays where you only want/need to connect to two strings, one to the left, one to the right of the controller, so additional outputs would be unneeded expense.
Other XCG-X2x boards will be added. perhaps some may include limited audio output so a full stand-alone sequencer with audio can be played from the microSD card.
-Ed
But ....
The ECG-P2, ECG-D2, and DCG-P2 (dmx -> pixel, not yet announced) and other future units have connectors to allow a small expansion (X2) board to sit on top. This still fits in the case and custom end panels will be available for all combinations.
The first in the series, the XCG-X2A (hence the 'A') includes 4 dip switches to locally control more setup options, 4 LEDs to help diagnose the unit, a microSD slot to install a microSD flash card with sequencing information on it, a Real-Time-Clock w/battery backup, and two connectors that look and can act like two single universe pixel connectors.
The two 'greenies' (our 1x4 3.5mm pluggable screw terminals) can also be configured with jumpers and software to act as four individual inputs or outputs (not bi-directional). these can be used to sense a push button switch or activate some other external functions.
So why do you want all this? Most people will just use the dip switches, LEDs, and be excited that for $15 they can get 2 more pixels strings. but future use of the microSD and the other forms of I/O should allow us to start doing standalone lighting for gardens, signs, attraction kiosks, etc. all with the same hardware. The addition of a real time clock will allow the user to schedule their garden lights to start/stop based on time of day etc.
Many people will use the basic board with no expansion to do fixture or panel oriented pixel control or for ridge line or icicle type displays where you only want/need to connect to two strings, one to the left, one to the right of the controller, so additional outputs would be unneeded expense.
Other XCG-X2x boards will be added. perhaps some may include limited audio output so a full stand-alone sequencer with audio can be played from the microSD card.
-Ed
DougieB
Full time elf
Thanks for the clarification, how soon before we can purchase?? 
- Thread starter
- #20
doing a search on ebay for "passive poe" shows many different models. i probably won't bother making one.
phil and i have been looking at some of the $25 8 port units as the best cost effectiveness. one guy in texas sells them with the power transformer. there are also wall-wart unit that supply the power and do the injection in a single unit.
-Ed
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=passive+poe&_sacat=See-All-Categories
phil and i have been looking at some of the $25 8 port units as the best cost effectiveness. one guy in texas sells them with the power transformer. there are also wall-wart unit that supply the power and do the injection in a single unit.
-Ed
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=passive+poe&_sacat=See-All-Categories
- Thread starter
- #21
good lord willin' and the crick don't rise we expect to have shipping quantities in stock by the end of May. we should know a lot more about price and schedule by next weekend.
-Ed
-Ed
j1sys said:
I have one of the 8 port units on order with a case from memory and will so a quick review, it was ordered in prep for Ed's announcements but hasn't yet arrived.
These look like a cost effective sensible way to get Passive POE.
Cheers
Phil
As I am new to blinky flashy, and am at the start of my gear collecting, I don't have an ethernet switch or POE injecting device yet, would something like this http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/537801312-16-port-10-100Mbps-PoE-Fast-Ethernet-Switch-Supports-Up-to-15-4W-Power-for-Each-wholesalers.html be suitable for these boards? Or would I be better off getting separate devices?
Mick
Short Answer - No
Longer Answer -
The devices will be using PASSIVE POE which is different to POE used in switches like that. Ed and I have some PASSIVE POE injection devices on order that are very reasonable in cost and once these are in hand we will be able to give them a thumbs up or down then provide advice.
Cheers
Phil
Short Answer - No
Longer Answer -
The devices will be using PASSIVE POE which is different to POE used in switches like that. Ed and I have some PASSIVE POE injection devices on order that are very reasonable in cost and once these are in hand we will be able to give them a thumbs up or down then provide advice.
Cheers
Phil
Timon
Apprentice elf
Fortunately a 802.11af PoE switch won't send power to the plugged in device unless it returns the proper resistance across either the data pair or the spare pair and passes the other checks so it's unlikely anything would be damaged if you did pug the controller into it.
That said why I think using a good old cheep 10/100 5 or 8 port hub in the display area to feed the devices and then running a single line back to your main network is the simplest way to go.
That said why I think using a good old cheep 10/100 5 or 8 port hub in the display area to feed the devices and then running a single line back to your main network is the simplest way to go.
- Thread starter
- #27
first - don't worry, be happy ....
we try to design powerful, flexible, cost effective (cheap?) hardware for the DIY industry. our boards are full of jumper options to enable, disable, configure the varieties of options we try to allow for.
the electronics of our designs require two voltage levels: 5VDC for interfaces because it is still a 5VDC world on the outside and 3.3VDC for our microcontroller and 95% of our support electronics.
in our first products, the ECG-DMXREN8, ECG-DR4, ECG-D4, ECG-D8 we required/supplied a medical grade well regulated 5VDC wall wart to supply the 5VDC and use an onboard 3.3V LDO regulator to provide the needed 3.3V. this does mean that the 5V -> 3.3V conversion is wasting power off to heat, but not too much.
this requires AC mains power to be nearby to supply the unit.
as we moved into pixel products with our PIXAD8 and P12R units we knew that SOME form of DC power should be present to power the pixels that were being attached to our boards so we found a reasonable priced switching regulator that would take a wide range of input power (7-36V) and provide 1.5A of 5VDC, then with our usual 3.3V LDO we had all of our digital power. we designed our boards with jumpers or flexible power connectors to allow the user to suppply either a clean 5VDC, if present, or a 7-36V power level and the OKI (our switching regulator) would take care of this. to use this the user MUST properly configure the board connections/jumpers. if you configure it for 5VDC and then attach a 36V input across the rails you will probably see beautiful smoke rings drifting over your work bench.
we took this idea to its next level with our PPX line of products that put pixel signals on a Cat5 cable as differential signals along with 7-36V to remotely power the receiving electronics and even a VERY short string of pixels from the receiving end OKI.
David_AVD did similar things with P-DMX using the same OKI regulator and so far, i believe, we've had great success with these little regulators.
when setting out to design the xCG-x2 series of products our first target was the ECG-P2. again being in the pixel world we know power should be nearby and we used our OKI/LDO combo to do our power. we've been working on some true 802.11af aware POE product designs but the POE switchers are more expensive than the OKI and larger. for pixels, where, power was available, it wasn't really needed anyway. but again, what if you wanted to drive just 30 or so pixels way out in the hinterlands of your display? so we took the 4/5, and 7/8 pairs out of the RJ45 ethernet jack and THROUGH a pair of option jumpers allowed for the POTENTIAL of tapping Passive POE (a popular non-standard) for our power input. but since our OKI maxes out at about 36V we targeted a nominal 24V PPOE design.
then when we decided to add an ECG-D2 two port DMX gateway the potential for PPOE was even more desirable. the ECG-D2 may be in the middle of nowhere and have no DC power at hand. so PPOE would be the smart way to drive it. but again it is disabled by default from the factory and the user must add the jumpers and accept the responsibility for using PPOE.
i know the 802.11af spec calls for PROPER handling of a non spec device but just in case the OKI appears to the 802.11af like it is proper or in case the $19 chinese knock-off POE switch CLAIMS to be 802.11af and really isn't i just want to be sure people understand the risk of 48V going into the OKI and making a smoke ring or fire hazard.
so i don't think there is any need to worry. i don't think many of the ECG-P2 will ever be used in PPOE manner. i think the ECG-D2 will play nice with most ethernet switch (POE or non-POE) out there with or without it's POE jumpers installed but i just wanted to lay down the reasoning and the rules that people need to understand before plugging things up.
-Ed
we try to design powerful, flexible, cost effective (cheap?) hardware for the DIY industry. our boards are full of jumper options to enable, disable, configure the varieties of options we try to allow for.
the electronics of our designs require two voltage levels: 5VDC for interfaces because it is still a 5VDC world on the outside and 3.3VDC for our microcontroller and 95% of our support electronics.
in our first products, the ECG-DMXREN8, ECG-DR4, ECG-D4, ECG-D8 we required/supplied a medical grade well regulated 5VDC wall wart to supply the 5VDC and use an onboard 3.3V LDO regulator to provide the needed 3.3V. this does mean that the 5V -> 3.3V conversion is wasting power off to heat, but not too much.
this requires AC mains power to be nearby to supply the unit.
as we moved into pixel products with our PIXAD8 and P12R units we knew that SOME form of DC power should be present to power the pixels that were being attached to our boards so we found a reasonable priced switching regulator that would take a wide range of input power (7-36V) and provide 1.5A of 5VDC, then with our usual 3.3V LDO we had all of our digital power. we designed our boards with jumpers or flexible power connectors to allow the user to suppply either a clean 5VDC, if present, or a 7-36V power level and the OKI (our switching regulator) would take care of this. to use this the user MUST properly configure the board connections/jumpers. if you configure it for 5VDC and then attach a 36V input across the rails you will probably see beautiful smoke rings drifting over your work bench.
we took this idea to its next level with our PPX line of products that put pixel signals on a Cat5 cable as differential signals along with 7-36V to remotely power the receiving electronics and even a VERY short string of pixels from the receiving end OKI.
David_AVD did similar things with P-DMX using the same OKI regulator and so far, i believe, we've had great success with these little regulators.
when setting out to design the xCG-x2 series of products our first target was the ECG-P2. again being in the pixel world we know power should be nearby and we used our OKI/LDO combo to do our power. we've been working on some true 802.11af aware POE product designs but the POE switchers are more expensive than the OKI and larger. for pixels, where, power was available, it wasn't really needed anyway. but again, what if you wanted to drive just 30 or so pixels way out in the hinterlands of your display? so we took the 4/5, and 7/8 pairs out of the RJ45 ethernet jack and THROUGH a pair of option jumpers allowed for the POTENTIAL of tapping Passive POE (a popular non-standard) for our power input. but since our OKI maxes out at about 36V we targeted a nominal 24V PPOE design.
then when we decided to add an ECG-D2 two port DMX gateway the potential for PPOE was even more desirable. the ECG-D2 may be in the middle of nowhere and have no DC power at hand. so PPOE would be the smart way to drive it. but again it is disabled by default from the factory and the user must add the jumpers and accept the responsibility for using PPOE.
i know the 802.11af spec calls for PROPER handling of a non spec device but just in case the OKI appears to the 802.11af like it is proper or in case the $19 chinese knock-off POE switch CLAIMS to be 802.11af and really isn't i just want to be sure people understand the risk of 48V going into the OKI and making a smoke ring or fire hazard.
so i don't think there is any need to worry. i don't think many of the ECG-P2 will ever be used in PPOE manner. i think the ECG-D2 will play nice with most ethernet switch (POE or non-POE) out there with or without it's POE jumpers installed but i just wanted to lay down the reasoning and the rules that people need to understand before plugging things up.
-Ed
Timon
Apprentice elf
Ed,
That was well said and very informative. And the short history of J1Sys was very interesting as well.
I'm guessing that you've already look at Linear Technology but I would not be doing due diligence if I at least didn't mention them. I haven't fully researched their power and PoE product line and costs but on first inspection they look promising. I like their LT3434 that would allow you to get 3.3V @ 2A over a 4 to 60V power source but price wise it can't compare to the OKI regulator.
This hobby has stirred my longing to get back into hardware and firmware design I did when I got my start into computers years ago. I'd love to get back into it but I think I'm just too far out to realistically get back in. I'll just stay with administrating Windows systems and Networks.
Again, great work.
That was well said and very informative. And the short history of J1Sys was very interesting as well.
I'm guessing that you've already look at Linear Technology but I would not be doing due diligence if I at least didn't mention them. I haven't fully researched their power and PoE product line and costs but on first inspection they look promising. I like their LT3434 that would allow you to get 3.3V @ 2A over a 4 to 60V power source but price wise it can't compare to the OKI regulator.
This hobby has stirred my longing to get back into hardware and firmware design I did when I got my start into computers years ago.
I'd love to get back into it but I think I'm just too far out to realistically get back in. I'll just stay with administrating Windows systems and Networks.Again, great work.
- Thread starter
- #29
Timon -
there are many chip level solutions that i have investigated. i'm not the best designer of that type of circuitry and the added complexity etc. would add space and cost to the boards. i use the OKI for it's price/performance point. I am desiging with Silvertel units where 802.11af POE with full isolation to meet more stringent pro series hardware requires it. but it is larger and more expensive.
-Ed
p.s. most POE solutions work only in the 48V nominal range. since we wanted local or poe power and since the local power would usually be 5V or 12V from the pixel power supplies we wanted/needed wide range dc-dc converters. again the OKI is hard to beat in that spec. but they max at about 36V
there are many chip level solutions that i have investigated. i'm not the best designer of that type of circuitry and the added complexity etc. would add space and cost to the boards. i use the OKI for it's price/performance point. I am desiging with Silvertel units where 802.11af POE with full isolation to meet more stringent pro series hardware requires it. but it is larger and more expensive.
-Ed
p.s. most POE solutions work only in the 48V nominal range. since we wanted local or poe power and since the local power would usually be 5V or 12V from the pixel power supplies we wanted/needed wide range dc-dc converters. again the OKI is hard to beat in that spec. but they max at about 36V
- Thread starter
- #30
another day, another $1.25, another board design ....
the DCG-P2 has been hinted at in a previous post. same footprint, same X2 capable etc.
it can, optionally, use P-DMX for input power. it has a jumper DMX termination which will probably always be used. since pixels consume so many slots most people will use these as single end-point devices. so we only have a single RJ45. if the user wants to daisy chain they must add an external splitter VERY close to the RJ45.
it will support DMX or hyperDMX. we will not limit you, but practical considerations will probably limit you to 4 universes, and for that you would need hyperDMX.
i'm not sure of the viability/price point of this unit vs. the full power and flexibility of the ECG-P2. but we just wanted to round out the product line.
-Ed
the DCG-P2 has been hinted at in a previous post. same footprint, same X2 capable etc.
it can, optionally, use P-DMX for input power. it has a jumper DMX termination which will probably always be used. since pixels consume so many slots most people will use these as single end-point devices. so we only have a single RJ45. if the user wants to daisy chain they must add an external splitter VERY close to the RJ45.
it will support DMX or hyperDMX. we will not limit you, but practical considerations will probably limit you to 4 universes, and for that you would need hyperDMX.
i'm not sure of the viability/price point of this unit vs. the full power and flexibility of the ECG-P2. but we just wanted to round out the product line.
-Ed
