Looking for Advice on First Commercial Project

johnson8ryley

My idol is ɟɐsʇǝppʎ
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
99
Location
Midwest USA
My 2 cents on how I would tackle this

I would have multiple Raspberry Pi's running FPP that on power-up run a predefined playlist of your sequences (One Raspberry Pi per "display" you have mentioned) This would narrow down the number of network cables required to run from a switch somewhere else on the property to control these, they would essentially be Plug and play, running from the same power source as the lights.
This should make it easier to manage on a whole, as you would know if that part of the display is not working, it's isolated to only one area, no cables to get tampered with other than the mains supply that I assume will be protected anyway, and much less work for you in terms of running extra wiring, dealing with extra universes etc on the main setup.


I had a similar option Notenoughthoughts. While I am familiar with Raspberry Pi's from my engineering courses, I have no experience using them along with FPP. This is something I could learn of course, but would cost time and hourly pay. I will explore this idea as you're right, having isolated units run by themselves makes the most sense. My plan in my head was to have a cheap computer at each central location running the show. For example the archway will have its own mini computer that controls the arches, isn't connected via networking to the rest of the farm, and turns on automatically and runs the predefined playlist.

The arches may need to be a raspberry pi with FPP as I won't be able to hide a computer in plain sight with regular arches around the farm.

As for the main barn, pixel mega trees, etc. That will be grouped together and ran by a computer with a network switch. Computer should be hidden pretty well and ethernet chords and power supplies will be locked and out of harms way. But FPP for the single arches spread throughout the farm is a great idea @Notenoughlights !
 

Notenoughlights

400,000+ twinkly lights
Joined
Oct 16, 2016
Messages
639
Location
Christchurch, New Zealand
I had a similar option Notenoughthoughts. While I am familiar with Raspberry Pi's from my engineering courses, I have no experience using them along with FPP. This is something I could learn of course, but would cost time and hourly pay. I will explore this idea as you're right, having isolated units run by themselves makes the most sense. My plan in my head was to have a cheap computer at each central location running the show. For example the archway will have its own mini computer that controls the arches, isn't connected via networking to the rest of the farm, and turns on automatically and runs the predefined playlist.

The arches may need to be a raspberry pi with FPP as I won't be able to hide a computer in plain sight with regular arches around the farm.

As for the main barn, pixel mega trees, etc. That will be grouped together and ran by a computer with a network switch. Computer should be hidden pretty well and ethernet chords and power supplies will be locked and out of harms way. But FPP for the single arches spread throughout the farm is a great idea @Notenoughlights !
I just started with FPP at the end of the year after discovering Vixen Scheduler hates 26,000 channels.

It's extremely easy to set up as I have since found out, and there are lots of videos on getting started with sequences, as far as i'm aware, you can use Xlights and Vixen sequences converted into .fseq format. I'm not sure if LOR can convert to .fseq format, someone may have to correct me here.
At $108NZD for a Pi 4, 4gb model, and that's overkill, I think you may find it's more budget friendly than buying a whole computer, running that etc. Power costs may not be an issue but when it comes down to being able to hide the pi inside the case that houses your controllers, it's great.

Canispater Christmas has made some very useful videos on all the setup and usage of FPP
It's a bit outdated but everything is pretty much similar.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X95Rv4JGG_Y
 

johnson8ryley

My idol is ɟɐsʇǝppʎ
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
99
Location
Midwest USA
@Notenoughlights thank you for the resources! I'll check this out next week as I'm putting together a rough quote for the farmer on my hours spent programming, costs for the lights, etc. I have 6+ old windows 7 computers at my house collecting dust, so truthfully it wouldn't be much of a hassle using them. BUT, moving forward to more isolated elements in the future, I 100% see why FPP would be the way to go.

While you're online notenoughlights, could you see my post above about the CCR pixel tree versus the 360 degree pixel node tree? I have never messed with mega trees before and I've tried to find videos online but I don't see anyone doing faces and designs on a 16x50 pixel node tree but I see plenty of houses doing faces and animations on pixel strip mega trees. Any thoughts about pixel density and visibility of a pixel node tree versus a pixel strip tree?
 

Notenoughlights

400,000+ twinkly lights
Joined
Oct 16, 2016
Messages
639
Location
Christchurch, New Zealand
@Notenoughlights thank you for the resources! I'll check this out next week as I'm putting together a rough quote for the farmer on my hours spent programming, costs for the lights, etc. I have 6+ old windows 7 computers at my house collecting dust, so truthfully it wouldn't be much of a hassle using them. BUT, moving forward to more isolated elements in the future, I 100% see why FPP would be the way to go.

While you're online notenoughlights, could you see my post above about the CCR pixel tree versus the 360 degree pixel node tree? I have never messed with mega trees before and I've tried to find videos online but I don't see anyone doing faces and designs on a 16x50 pixel node tree but I see plenty of houses doing faces and animations on pixel strip mega trees. Any thoughts about pixel density and visibility of a pixel node tree versus a pixel strip tree?
I would agree 100% that a node tree will have a lower resolution for animations, text, faces etc. I've got a 64 strand 73 node tree, I wouldn't consider it to be high density and have a feeling I could get faces to display without issue, the resolution would not be fantastic and I don't have a huge space for people to view from far away, that said I just don't have the patience or any need/interest in making a singing face.
with nodes you can get 1 inch, 2 inch 3 inch spacing, with strip you can get leds so tightly compact it's almost like a screen in itself, 144 leds per meter etc, 60 leds per meter and so on.

Nodes vs strip trees, you may find a lot more failures on a strip tree, as strip is very fragile and you may end up needing to support it on conduit, etc to stop it being pulled on too tight. Repairs on led strip is also tedious as most of the time it's in a silicon tube so getting to the damaged portion without compromising the watertight layer is tricky.

An idea for a 360 tree, would be split it into 2 180 trees, display the same thing on the front/back of the tree, though that may give a strange perspective when looking side on.

Having nodes to display images/faces/text may mean you can see them from further back, which is ideal in your situation as I assume you will have a large open space.
 

johnson8ryley

My idol is ɟɐsʇǝppʎ
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
99
Location
Midwest USA
Nodes vs strip trees, you may find a lot more failures on a strip tree, as strip is very fragile and you may end up needing to support it on conduit, etc to stop it being pulled on too tight. Repairs on led strip is also tedious as most of the time it's in a silicon tube so getting to the damaged portion without compromising the watertight layer is tricky.
Not too worried about this as if a strip goes out, they're only about $20 to replace which the farm owner won't mind I'm sure. And replacements will come with connectors attached so it should be a matter of swapping out the bad pixel strip by plug and play.


An idea for a 360 tree, would be split it into 2 180 trees, display the same thing on the front/back of the tree, though that may give a strange perspective when looking side on.

Having nodes to display images/faces/text may mean you can see them from further back, which is ideal in your situation as I assume you will have a large open space.

I'm slow so maybe clarify some of this if you could. For the 360 degree tree, are you referring to a node tree? And if so, that was my plan was to order a 360 tree and duplicate the display on the front to the back of the tree as well. With people walking around the farm, they'll be able to see the faces and animations from the front and back of the tree.

As for the node tree, HolidayCoro states "Due to the smaller pitch size (usually 2 inches) of a Node/Pixel Node, this tree is best for viewing distances of under 25 feet due to the higher density of pixels

This makes me thing the node tree is best for viewing up close which is ideal since people will be walking around the tree. But at the same time, I'm worried that faces and animations won't be as visible such as the CCR pixel strand tree:

HolidayCoro: Strip / Ribbon / Tape
  • Due to the larger pixel pitch (each pixel is comprised of three individual groupings of LED's about 4 inches long) and the larger size, this tree type is best when viewed at distances of 25 feet or more
 

Notenoughlights

400,000+ twinkly lights
Joined
Oct 16, 2016
Messages
639
Location
Christchurch, New Zealand
I'm slow so maybe clarify some of this if you could. For the 360 degree tree, are you referring to a node tree? And if so, that was my plan was to order a 360 tree and duplicate the display on the front to the back of the tree as well. With people walking around the farm, they'll be able to see the faces and animations from the front and back of the tree.
That's exactly what I mean. Run the same effects on the front, and back of the tree so in theory you have 2 180 degree trees back to back with each other.


HolidayCoro: Strip / Ribbon / Tape
  • Due to the larger pixel pitch (each pixel is comprised of three individual groupings of LED's about 4 inches long) and the larger size, this tree type is best when viewed at distances of 25 feet or more
To me it sounds like they're using ws2811 (or similar chip) 12v strip, like this one here. I've got that on the inside of my window frames to light up the windows, the led's light up 3 at a time, you may find it harder to do faces with fine details using this. You can DIY it and get 5V ws2812 strip 60 leds per meter with each led being individually controllable or I believe there's a new 12v style out, I'm not sure of it's name, that does the same thing. You will find it easier to get fine details with these types of strip.


As for the node tree, HolidayCoro states "Due to the smaller pitch size (usually 2 inches) of a Node/Pixel Node, this tree is best for viewing distances of under 25 feet due to the higher density of pixels

I'd say yes to this, 25 feet is just over 7.5 meters, a 6 meter (20ft) tall tree like mine with 2 inch spacing you may be best viewing from further, but a shorter tree may be better viewed closer up. Running at 100% brightness may also make it difficult to view, pixels are bright! 20-30% may make it easier on peoples eyes.
As mentioned above, the more pixels in an area on a tree, the more detail you'll be able to display. It won't get good as 60 pixels per meter strip, but will still look appealing.
 

johnson8ryley

My idol is ɟɐsʇǝppʎ
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
99
Location
Midwest USA
To me it sounds like they're using ws2811 (or similar chip) 12v strip, like this one here. I've got that on the inside of my window frames to light up the windows, the led's light up 3 at a time, you may find it harder to do faces with fine details using this. You can DIY it and get 5V ws2812 strip 60 leds per meter with each led being individually controllable or I believe there's a new 12v style out, I'm not sure of it's name, that does the same thing. You will find it easier to get fine details with these types of strip.

I agree with you there Notenough, however, HolidayCoro is running an insane presale on their CCR tree. Yes, they are 2811 strips which I use on my current arches, but the tree kit is only $600. Comes with strips, controller, enclosure, prewired cables, power supply, mounting hardware, everything. I did the math and honestly I can't beat this price even if I went DIY route.


I'd say yes to this, 25 feet is just over 7.5 meters, a 6 meter (20ft) tall tree like mine with 2 inch spacing you may be best viewing from further, but a shorter tree may be better viewed closer up. Running at 100% brightness may also make it difficult to view, pixels are bright! 20-30% may make it easier on peoples eyes.
As mentioned above, the more pixels in an area on a tree, the more detail you'll be able to display. It won't get good as 60 pixels per meter strip, but will still look appealing.

Thank you so much for your insight because I have to present this information to the owner to decide what 2 trees we want to buy. Personally I think 1 tree of each is best, but we'll see what he wants. The node tree from holidaycoro is either 10ft tall with 2.5' space or 12ft tall with 3' spacing. I'm still very worried that I won't be able to see faces on the pixel node tree, but I'll probably go with the 10ft tree with 2.5' spacing (and of course dim the brightness).

If anyone thinks this megatree (https://www.holidaycoro.com/product-p/813-360.htm) won't be ideal for for viewing faces and designs up close let me know! I really want a 360 degree tree given people will be walking around the farm
 

Notenoughlights

400,000+ twinkly lights
Joined
Oct 16, 2016
Messages
639
Location
Christchurch, New Zealand
If anyone thinks this megatree (https://www.holidaycoro.com/product-p/813-360.htm) won't be ideal for for viewing faces and designs up close let me know! I really want a 360 degree tree given people will be walking around the farm
If your plan was to make that the tree you split into two and had front/back mirrored I would consider doing a 64 strip tree, 16 strands per side just seems a little sparse in order to get a good detailed face. Designs however you may have no issue with but you won't get great detail out of it. More pixels = better resolution for faces/images. To keep costs down, it may be easier to DIY the strips and add them to the kit.
 

i13

Dedicated elf
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
1,172
Notenoughlights made a good point. The quality of pictures on the tree isn't just determined by the spacing of the pixels within each strand; it is also determined by the spacing between each strand. For text, I'd expect that you don't need very good resolution. I have a very wide matrix in my display and it is only 9 pixels high. Text shows up just fine.

A point to consider when choosing nodes versus strip is that when you buy replacement strands in future, the RGB order could be different to the original strands. In my experience (which isn't a huge number of orders), nodes seem to have a more consistent RGB order than strips.
 

johnson8ryley

My idol is ɟɐsʇǝppʎ
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
99
Location
Midwest USA
A point to consider when choosing nodes versus strip is that when you buy replacement strands in future, the RGB order could be different to the original strands. In my experience (which isn't a huge number of orders), nodes seem to have a more consistent RGB order than strips.
Good point. This is something I could change within the controller webGUI though couldn't I? Change the RGB order
 

johnson8ryley

My idol is ɟɐsʇǝppʎ
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
99
Location
Midwest USA
If your plan was to make that the tree you split into two and had front/back mirrored I would consider doing a 64 strip tree, 16 strands per side just seems a little sparse in order to get a good detailed face. Designs however you may have no issue with but you won't get great detail out of it. More pixels = better resolution for faces/images. To keep costs down, it may be easier to DIY the strips and add them to the kit.
I looked into your suggestion and HC's controllers allow for daisy chaining additional pixels. I'm thinking I can do a 48 strip tree instead of a 32x50 360 degree tree. They also sell a topper that allows for 48 strands to be connected to the quick connect topper at the top. I'll debate between 48 and 64, we'll see. It will add cost though to the project the owner may not like and if I go the 64 route, I might as well do everything DIY which really would increase costs with wiring involved I believe. I'll crunch some numbers and see but I think a 48x50 360 degree tree would look good for faces.

Now whether sequences programmed for 16x50 will stretch and look good on a 24x50 tree (front) and 24x50 (back) remains to be a mystery....
Deadline to order these parts is by January 30th :oops:
 

Notenoughlights

400,000+ twinkly lights
Joined
Oct 16, 2016
Messages
639
Location
Christchurch, New Zealand
I looked into your suggestion and HC's controllers allow for daisy chaining additional pixels. I'm thinking I can do a 48 strip tree instead of a 32x50 360 degree tree. They also sell a topper that allows for 48 strands to be connected to the quick connect topper at the top. I'll debate between 48 and 64, we'll see. It will add cost though to the project the owner may not like and if I go the 64 route, I might as well do everything DIY which really would increase costs with wiring involved I believe. I'll crunch some numbers and see but I think a 48x50 360 degree tree would look good for faces.

Now whether sequences programmed for 16x50 will stretch and look good on a 24x50 tree (front) and 24x50 (back) remains to be a mystery....
Deadline to order these parts is by January 30th :oops:
Make sure the power supplies can handle it, and don't forget power injection!
 

johnson8ryley

My idol is ɟɐsʇǝppʎ
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
99
Location
Midwest USA
Make sure the power supplies can handle it, and don't forget power injection!
Will definitely get another power supply more than likely and inject power when needed! I'd have to do the math but I think injecting power every 100 nodes would be sufficient. Clearly I have more work cutout for me than just buying the kits like I originally intended. Thanks again for steering me in the right direction Notenoughlights!
 
Top